A keyboard and blocks with marketing icons on them indicating Marketing for legal services

[Source: Fretzin]

Celebrity Divorce Lawyer Christopher C. Melcher of Walzer Melcher, which was named best family law firm in 2020 by Chambers & Partners, Explains Marketing for Lawyers

Christopher Melcher: Marketing Through Presentation for Lawyers

In this episode Christopher Melcher and Steve Fretzin discuss the most important things lawyers need to know about marketing, what holds lawyers back from marketing, learning through speaking at seminars, understanding your niche and call to action.

Key Points:

  • While many lawyers may believe they are beyond marketing and above it, for growth and scalability, marketing is necessary to grow your business. 

  • Market to other lawyers – that is who is going to send you work.

  • Learn how to speak in front of a group, learn how to be memorable or entertaining. 

  • Ask for the reviews. People are looking for social evidence to understand someone’s value. 

Christopher  Melcher: If you want to be a solo practitioner and stay there, that’s perfectly fine, and actually you can do really well doing that. But if you want to grow and go beyond that and make a lot more money, you need to bring in more clients, and the only way you’re going to do that is with a marketing strategy that makes sense, and that you apply.

 BE THAT LAWYER, is a podcast with life-changing strategies and resources for growing a successful law practice. Each episode, your host, author, and lawyer coach Steve Fretzin will take a deeper dive, helping you grow your law practice in less time with greater results. Now here’s your host, Steve Fretzin.

Steve Fretzin: Hey everybody, welcome to BE THAT LAWYER, I hope you’re having a great day so far. I have a company called the FRETZIN, INC, where we work with attorneys on a pretty heavy basis, helping them to double or triple their books of business through some planning and execution on business development, things you never learned in law school, and happy to have you visit my website at fretzin.com or check out any of my three books on Amazon, if you’re interested. So now that, that’s aside, let’s talk about the business at hand today. I’ve got an amazing guest celebrity divorce lawyer Christopher Melcher. Christopher, how’s it going?

Christopher: Great, Steve, thanks for having me on the show. I’m really excited to be here with you today.

Steve Fretzin: Well, I appreciate it very much. I’ve heard nothing but good things about you from some of my client attorney friends, and so I was super happy and excited to hear what you have to say and everything. But if you wouldn’t mind just giving my audience another little reader’s digest version on your background, and not only that, but maybe some of the things you’ve accomplished as a rainmaker or as a marketer in the legal space.

Christopher:  I’m a celebrity divorce lawyer based in Los Angeles, CA and I have pretty much a statewide practice in California doing the biggest divorce cases out there. We have right now, seven lawyers in our office, we’ve been bigger and we’re trying to get back up to those numbers, but we’re representing super-wealthy people going through a divorce, that’s our niche. And this comes from really mining that particular area. And we’re very selective about the clients we take and we’re referring out, most of the other stuff. I’ve moved mostly into big-time financial divorce is where I like to be in, international issues where we have bi-coastal or multinational couples going through a divorce, and then also on the appellate level. So that’s where most of my day is spent, is bringing in these big cases and managing them.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And I’d be curious to know, at what point in your career, you figured out that marketing was something that you may want to consider doing or actually start doing?

Christopher: Well, I had to learn that. Although my dad was a lawyer, he was a solo and he didn’t know anything about marketing. He did well, but he was a good lawyer, but he didn’t know a thing about marketing. And so I did, okay, I started as a solo because there was no work available. When I got out in 1994, the conditions, the economic conditions were very bad. And so I had to go out as a solo and learn how to practice law and try and bring in business. It went okay, but there were certainly times that I struggled. And as a solo, it was very, very kind of touch and go at times.

And then by happenstance, I met this guy down the hall from me who was doing divorce, and I never thought I would do anything with divorce, but I was … I had an open mind and he was looking for a partner, or associate, somebody to bring in, and he was older than me. And so I got to know him and I learned about his practice and took a dive in and went to work for him, and then eventually me, him and the secretary formed this partnership and grew it from that to what we have now, which is a pretty substantial business.

Steve Fretzin: Got you. And it’s interesting, my father is also a solo retired attorney, and I’ve got some funny stories about his lack of business acumen back in the day, but still retired with plenty of dough and he’s doing fine. He’s 86 and down in Florida half the year when he can, but it’s amazing. And I never thought about lawyers ever needing business development or marketing, it was just, the business was always there, so what’s the problem? And now obviously it’s come home to roost where it’s become one of the most important things a lawyer probably needs to know. So let’s take that to the next point and what keeps most lawyers from marketing these days?

Christopher: So I think that this is ingrained in our profession. We’re stifled, we’re terrible marketers because it was illegal for us to market as lawyers for the beginning parts of the legal profession. And it was only in really recent times, I’m saying from maybe the 70s’ or something on that, that we could actually market our practices. And I think that there is an elitist were above all this advertising marketing stuff that lawyers have in their consciousness and I understand that. We’re a profession we’re not supposed to look like other companies or businesses, and that’s, what’s gotten us off track. And that thought that we’re going to just sit there and be great lawyers and people will just somehow come to us from the atmosphere, that might be enough to run a solo practice and support rent and a secretary, you’re never going to grow beyond that without it.

And so I think that there are lawyers that use this, we’re above marketing, as an excuse because they don’t want to put themselves out there. They don’t have the confidence, they’re afraid, and so then they said, “Oh, I’m not going to market.” Well again, if you want to be a solo and stay there, that’s perfectly fine, and actually, you can do really well doing that, but if you want to grow, and go beyond that and make a lot more money, you need to bring in more clients, and the only way you’re going to do that is with a marketing strategy that makes sense and that you apply.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And I think the fears that they have, and the mindset that they come out of law school with is changing. I think they’re starting to realize what’s going on. In fact, I just signed somebody up who has only been a lawyer for two months, and normally that’s not the timing of someone to hire me and invest in business development, coaching, and training, but this young man is just so hungry and so ready to grow and doesn’t want to wait and have to put through the years of just winging it or figuring out on the wing and a prayer. And so I think that might be the signal that things are changing.

Christopher: Well, Steve, I am so excited to hear that because if I would have known about your services when I was a two-month-old lawyer, I would have been making twice as much money right now.  It’s like I spent 10 years waiting to figure out how to be this, and I figured out I’m just going to try cases and people are going to come to me. If I would have known about all that back then it would have saved so much time. And the other thing that’s holding people back is they figure, “Oh, I need a bigger resume. Once I get on this committee or try this many cases or become partner, then I’ll start marketing.” That’s all nonsense.

Most of the super successful lawyers probably aren’t even very good lawyers. They’re good marketers, that’s why they’re making money. And so learning that stuff, and especially now with social media and video, you don’t need to be a great lawyer. They can’t figure it out by themselves. They need help, and I’ve used a coach. They absolutely need that accountability and knowledge, and then it starts.

Steve Fretzin: And let’s transition that. And I appreciate that, and look, I’m excited to have the opportunity to work with ambitious attorneys that are interested in learning and growing. And that might be a 5% sliver of the legal universe, but for me, that’s fantastic, because those are the people that I get a lot of energy in working with. So it ends up being a great win-win. If they’re ready to learn and I’m ready to teach, and we can partner to accomplish some bigger goals and not waste time, I’m on board as you know. Now, let me ask you this. Since I brought up the concept of young lawyers and then there are older lawyers and there are different stages where lawyers might want to get involved, not only in marketing but also in speaking as a marketing tool, can you talk to that? Because I know you’ve been very successful on the speaking circuit and building business through that channel.

Christopher: Sure. So that’s how I got started. And so just going back a little bit, my business partner is top family law attorney Peter Walzer, his Dad was Stuart Walzer who legitimized the big case divorce practice in California. And so before that, and we’re going back in the 60s’ or 70s’, just divorced practices were … they had no respect. I mean, to the extent they have any now, they didn’t have any back then. He legitimize this in saying, you could have a shop that just handles big divorce. And he was an excellent marketer. Peter learned from him, and then I followed in their footsteps and what they did was speak to other lawyers. And when I started with this divorce practice, that made no sense to me. I always thought, no, you market to clients. No, we don’t market at least in our practice to clients, we market to other lawyers because those are the ones that send us work.

Somebody worth a billion dollars isn’t going to go on the internet and start Googling who’s a good divorce lawyer in Los Angeles. They’re going to have their business lawyer, their manager, their assistant, and they’re going to source that person. They’re going to go to other lawyers somewhere, maybe even outside LA and California and find that. So we’re marketing to other lawyers, and a great way to do that is through speaking at CLE seminars. And so the first one I did, I didn’t know anything about family law. And so it’s just like Peter helped me get the speaking gig. I’m going to speak at the San Fernando Valley Bar Association on criminal and family law crossover because I came from criminal defense.

I learned everything I needed to know about this domestic violence crossover issue, that was seminar number one. And that’s how I learned family law, because now I’ve done 200 seminars and each one of those, either an hour or an all-day program. They take a tremendous amount of time to prepare for, and through doing 200 seminars, I know a little bit about family law. And each one of those seminars has got 50 to 300 to 400 people watching them, and then I’ve got co-presenters that I get to meet. And you do that 200 times, you not only know your subject, you know a lot of people and a lot more people know you. And so that’s the method that worked for me. And then now there’s going to be the different stages, and I have different suggestions, it would just depend on what lawyer you’re trying to help.

Steve Fretzin: Got you. So when you talk stages, we’re talking about maybe a younger lawyer, at the early stages of a career, versus middle, versus et cetera, is that where we’re going with this?

Christopher: Exactly. So if you’re the lawyer, who’s just starting out. You’re the two-month lawyer that you have as this new client, my suggestion to that person is, first of all, don’t be afraid, don’t worry that you’re only a two-month lawyer, that there are people that are going to help and bring you in. And so the first thing is where do these speaking gigs come from? And so all these bar organizations are run by volunteers. There are other lawyers who are on these committees that are trying to come up with a seminar topic and run this, and we’re not getting paid to do this. And so if you’re a young lawyer, I would go to the smallest bar organization you can find, come up with a topic that you think is interesting, find out who’s the seminar committee leader and say, “Hey, I’ve got a presentation I’d like to give to your group.” And don’t say, “Oh, I’ve only been practicing two months and I don’t know what I’m doing.” They know.

Steve Fretzin: Maybe don’t lead with that, right?

Christopher: Yeah, yeah, don’t leave with that. But just say, “Hey, I’ve got this presentation, it’s on this subject matter, and I’m super passionate about it and I’d love to present to your group.” And they’re going to say, “Sure, let’s pick a date.” And it’s not going to be in person now it’s going to be on video. Fine. And that’s going to be your first seminar. Don’t tell anybody it’s your first seminar, but that’s going to be your first one. Start small, you’ll realize how to do it, and then it becomes easy from there. And then hopefully it’s going to spark that passion in you and to say, wow, this wasn’t so bad, I learned a lot, I met a few people, and then you build from there, and do it two, three, four, five times, and then now you got your sea legs. Okay? So don’t expect you’re going to do this presentation, you’re going to get five cases. But for the starting out lawyer, you just need to figure out how do you get these speaking gigs and how do you put them on? That’s all you’re trying to do.

Steve Fretzin: And by the way, just as an aside, one of my previous guests is a gentleman David Fram. So if you’re listening to this and you’re like, I’d love to be a speaker, but I’m super introverted or uncomfortable, or I don’t know how to present in an effective manner, David Fram has all kinds of workshops that he does and coaching that he provides to help people become better speakers. So that might be helpful if you’re looking to improve your speaking skills prior to starting out, and making speaking a part of your marketing play for 2021 and into the future.

Christopher: That is super important, and I liked that episode, and I’ve worked with communication coaches, and  all this stuff’s on video, on YouTube now, too. So you can see how do you do a good speech, because the thing is, is that as you’re doing these speaking gigs, you want to look good. Your goal, your stated goal is to teach the subject. Your secret goal is to get cases and to brand yourself and to build this image as the lawyer in this subject matter that as the go-to person you don’t say that, but that’s your hidden objective. You’re never going to get that if you give a bad speech, and so you want it to be entertaining.

The good thing is, the expectations for lawyers going to a legal seminar are extremely low because lawyers are horrible speakers. I don’t understand this. You figure lawyers should all be great presenters. No, they’re horrible, horrible presenters. They hunker down behind a desk, they ramble, they’re unprepared. If you go in there, even if you don’t know what you’re talking about and you’re entertaining, and you’re funny and dynamic, people are going to listen to you and are going to remember, and like you.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. That makes a big difference to being memorable, not for being bad, but for being entertaining and for giving some really good points that demonstrate your expertise and also build some rapport with a group or with individuals within that group.

Christopher: Yeah, yeah. So I would say in that beginning stage lawyer, it’s just figuring out, where do I get the speaking gigs? How do I speak? And once you’ve done a few of those, and you’ve figured that out, and you got some couple of years behind your belt, now you’re in a mid stage lawyer. And at this point now, you’re trying to figure out what is your niche going to be? Because being a general practitioner, or you’re going to be even a civil litigator, or a defense attorney, it’s too broad.

And so you’ve got to brand yourself and figure out what differentiates you from the other lawyers? Why is somebody going to pay you a premium? What are you going to deliver that other lawyers aren’t going to deliver?

So that gets into this whole concept of branding.

And so now that you’ve practiced a few years, you kind of figure out like, okay, what do you like to do? What are you good at doing? What are you passionate about? And then start mining that. And then you start picking seminar topics that are specific to that area because that’s the kind of work that you want to do or work that you want to get. Like for me, in family law, there’s a very broad range of topics that I can speak on. Now, do I want to speak on how to set support for low-income individuals? Does welfare count as income for spousal support and child support? Those are interesting and important topics for sure, but is that the case I want? No. I want to talk about wealthy folks going through a divorce that have to set child support that have so much money, that it’s going to blow up the calculator that we use and where you have to set support without a formula because they make so much money. That’s what I want to talk about.

Most people never get those cases in the door, but after they hear me speak about that enough, and I tell them stories, and this is important about speaking, is you have to put yourself in action saying, well, I had a case once involving a billionaire and they had so much money, and this is how I made the argument, and this is the outcome, and this is how I got them through that. Now they see you in action. When the case comes in the door if it’s out of their area or they just can’t handle it, who are they going to send it to? Me. And so in your middle stage, you want to be thinking about what is your niche, and you want to mine that niche.

Steve Fretzin: And I love that, because you’re talking about how someone’s not only developing as an attorney, but also how that then impacts how they’re focusing on the presentation for the group of individuals that they want to target. Whether it’s a specific types of lawyers or specific types of end-users. So I love that you’re building off of what you already have done.

Christopher: Yeah, that took me a while because initially I just love speaking. If I were on a stage with 300 people, no problem. I was just actually more comfortable doing it that way. And then I just started speaking at everything that I could get my hands on. I was doing it once a week at one point. But I felt like I wasn’t focused.

And so when I started thinking about branding and niche, that’s when I started becoming super selective about what I was going to speak about.

And then the final part, and this is where kind of end-stage lawyers or late-stage lawyers that I’m seeing is, is that these lawyers have done very well, but now all their referral sources are dying or retiring.

And so for them, and they’ve done very well for many years, getting referrals from their friends, but those friends aren’t around anymore, and they’ve forgotten about the generation of lawyers before them. And the lawyers that were the young ones that they paid no attention to, the associates who they dismissed- now it’s payback time because there’s no work coming in for them. And so that’s a mistake. And so what they need to be doing, if they haven’t done it already is go back to those younger lawyers and build relationships with them. Because now these younger lawyers are now in their 40s or 50s and are the ones that are going to be bringing in the business and doing the referrals to the ones in their 60s and 70s, and so that’s important.

And then to finish it off, if you are that kind of senior attorney that’s done well, and you have all the connections and you know how to speak, and you know what your niche is, here’s, what’s missing, is a call to action. And that’s the hardest part.

And that was hard for me because it’s like … and I’ve seen this with myself, I’ve seen this with my partner where it’s like, wow, we’ve done everything. We’ve been on every committee, we’ve got every award, we’ve been … We’ve handled every type of case, why isn’t the phone ringing?

Well, nobody knows what to do with you. They think well, you’re super successful, you don’t need work or you only handle this particular type of case, so they don’t know what to do with you. They know you, but they don’t know what to do with you. And so now what I’ve been doing is a call to action.

So it’s like I’ve done the presentation or somewhere in there, and it’s saying, “Hey, you know what? If you had a super complicated legal issue come up in one of your divorce cases, and you want to consult with me, I’m happy to do that. Pick up the phone, call me. I’m always available to do that. I won’t even charge you to talk about your case.”

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. So there’s some incentive that you’re providing, in this case, free advice, to get them to consider, hey, that would be, the next step. Would be to take action, and give me a shout.

Christopher: That’s it. Because when I’ve studied these other lawyers and I know everyone in this space, there are some lawyers who we understand are absolute experts in a particular niche of family law, but then we don’t know are they looking for business? How do we work with them? Do they just know this stuff, or are they available to consult? We don’t know what to do with them because they never told us. And it’s so simple.

And one of the things, when I switched over to a lot of video learning, I was trying to just develop this a little bit more, and I figured I’d like to get some more Google reviews, how am I going to get these Google reviews? Well, it’s easy, ask.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. That’s it.

Christopher: The only ones you’re going to get by not asking are the one stars. And so I tried it, during some of these webinars, and at the end, I say, hey, if you like this webinar, it’s free, it’s a lot of work, I love doing it, I’m super excited for you all to be here, could you just do me one favor? I’m sending you a link, could you follow this and give me a Google review? I got 42 5-star reviews.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. That’s it. That’s great. And that’s the social evidence that people are looking for to understand someone’s value. And we do that for restaurants, we do that for products. I mean, that’s what we’re doing these days to make decisions, but people are going to need a little prompting, especially in the space you’re in.

Christopher: Yeah. And I think the simple thing is you just have to ask, and that’s so what’s hard for us because we’re embarrassed by that. We’re like, oh, I don’t want to ask for work that just sounds weird or pushy or whatever, and obviously, you have to do it in a respectful way.

If you don’t ask, you will not receive.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah.  I love the stages and the information that you’re giving and the secret sauce that you’re sharing is really, really powerful. I just want to add to it because the way that I’ve helped lawyers with speaking has been to get them to think about it like a story, right? Every good story has a beginning, a middle, and an end, and I think, you’re right in the middle of that. And what I mean by beginning, middle and end is that before to get us a presentation, there are some plannings, things, that you need to do. That could be the topic, that could be the approach, how you’re speaking or who you’re speaking to at the association, then there’s the execution, which you mentioned, and that’s how you’re presenting, how you’re telling a story, engaging the audience. Maybe it’s interactive versus a lecture where you’re just talking for an hour straight, and they’re just looking at their phones in 15 minutes.

And then the last part is how are you getting them to take that call to action, right? That could be asking for reviews or incorporating a survey.

I’ve helped a lot of attorneys improve their speaking next steps by getting a survey filled out. Now in CLE, they do that, but maybe the moderator will allow you to add a couple of questions to their CLE form. And one of those questions could be, do you want to learn more about my services? Do you want to get together and network together to possibly be of use to each other? Whatever. You come up with that thing, but this is a way to not leave those open gaps where people just leave and it’s almost like it never happened. And we want to try to get things set up and structured in such a way where there is going to be some actual business or traction that comes from it. And that’s where I think attorneys that do speak get frustrated. Because they might be doing it for five years without really seeing the traction or the action or the business. And so what do you think about those kinds of concepts?

Christopher: Well, Steve, absolutely. And that’s why working with a coach like yourself is so important because as a lawyer, we’re busy. I mean, we’re working on our cases, we’re managing, we got personnel issues. I mean, it is a lot to be a lawyer. And you know, all of these techniques, you know the connections, like if there’s needs to be a speaking coach who is that going to be? So working with a coach is super important. And just listening to you speak, I may go back and maybe work with you on this, because we need this tune-up all the time. On that particular topic that you talked about, on kind of tying the knot because now you’ve done … you’ve picked the topic, you’ve got your date set, you’ve prepared your PowerPoint and you’re about to execute it. Well, there are things that we can do to enhance this, or this project to actually turn into business.

What I’ve been doing now that I switched over to a lot of video learning, is that I’ll have my program ready to go, I’ll go onto LinkedIn, I’ll set up a LinkedIn event, I’ll invite my contacts that I think are going to be interested in that, it’s really easy to start clicking the contacts. You then send them that invitation, just says, “Hey, I’m doing a program, a webinar it’s free-include the date, time, place, and I hope you can join me.”

A lot of them will respond back. “Hey, Chris, I haven’t seen you in a long time. What’s going on?” Now, you’ve started a conversation. “Hey, I’m really glad that you signed up for my program. I’m excited for you to be there. I’m glad to hear what’s going on in your practice and life, etc.”

Now you execute the program while you have a list of attendees. As they’re signing on you give shout-outs. “Hey, I see Don here is on this program. I haven’t seen them in a long time. I’m so happy for you to be here, we had a case together.” Now they’re like, wow, engagement during the program.

When the program’s done, you can use Zoom webinar, it’ll automate, or you can use Zapier there’s automation programs that will then send them a thank you. Hey, thanks for attending, here are the programs, here’s the CLE certificate, could you give me that five-star review?

If I’m really on my game, then I’m going to be messaging them back saying, hey, thanks for that question that you asked during the program. That was super cool. Glad to see that you attended, I’d like to send you 10 more of these programs. If you find them interesting, do you have other ideas? Would you like to co-speak with me on something like that?

We’re now taking one program and using it to get real engagement with folks. Then reinforcing that you’re speaking and an expert on this particular topic, that’s gold. I did that post-pandemic, I tried that, I think I did four or six programs once a week in a row. I followed that program, I had to shut it down because I got so much business I can’t even do that work.

Steve Fretzin: Wow, and that’s amazing. And I think the combination of the virtual meetings through Zoom, et cetera, and LinkedIn, and how that all works together, and the live and the interaction, it’s just a whole other level of capacity that you can put your name out there and reach people that maybe weren’t reachable in the past. So, while there are a lot of negatives to not doing live presentations, we have to look at the pros, and I think you’ve done that and explain that. I think that’s really impressive.

Christopher: Thanks. Yeah, I think there’s good stuff that came out of the pandemic, and one is the video learning. Because doing the live presentations is a lot of work, a lot of travel, and you’re separated from the audience.

Doing presentations on video, you can see who those people are, you can chat with them, you can give shout-outs and you can share it, you could dice it up into smaller segments. It is the best way to go. You’re not just pushing a video out there on the internet, you have to do engagement with your audience.

And so that’s what I would be looking at. And even if it’s five or 10 people, you don’t need a big audience. If you’re in a small niche, like I am, there’s not a lot of people who can refer a billionaire to another lawyer. So I don’t need to put my message out there to thousands of lawyers, I need to put that message out there to hundreds of lawyers or maybe tens of lawyers.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. So, again, quantity is lovely to have, but again, if you’re in a niche or you’re looking to get specific people, to get to know them, yeah, go for the quality and go for the tighter group. I think that’s fine. I know that I can get, 50, 75 people on a webinar, but I’m very happy with 10 if they’re the right people. If they’re highly ambitious and interested, then that’s going to be better than 60 people who are just trying to get a free CLE out of it, or just trying to just pick up a tip and then move on. Which is fine, I’m happy to provide those tips, but again, at the end of the day, we want to see if there are connections we can make that leads to a next step business, a referral partner, something of value for everybody.

Christopher: Well, that’s right. And I learned that, I did a program in Santa Barbara County Bar Association, drove up there and it was very lovely. I gave the presentation and then I had lunch afterward and I’m getting my food, and somebody walks up to me and says, “Yeah, that was a pretty good presentation, what did you think about it?” And I’m like, “Well, yeah, I was the speaker.” And it was like, I realized how could this person not … I mean, we just gave this program, and they didn’t even know I was the presenter. And it’s like, so how could I have failed so badly to engage with my audience? And so that was an aha moment. T

Even if there are 300 people in the room, I got to reach in there and connect with each one of those people and make them remember me.

Steve Fretzin: Yeah. And I think we have to continue to consider that speaking and writing and networking and all of these things that Christopher and I are talked about today, these are all learned skills. These are not things that you have to be born with, a natural this, or a natural that. You spend a little time with a coach, with a mentor, with a really good book that hits all the tactical elements, you’re going to pick up things that are going to be beneficial. And the other thing I want to kind of end on is something you just said, which is so important, and that is, don’t keep making the same mistakes. If you can identify what’s working and what’s not working and make the fix on the fly, identify it, make the fix, that’s going to change the future.

You’re going to be in a better position next week, or next month or next year, than you just were. And people that don’t make those changes, they’re the ones that have been speaking for five years and still aren’t getting any results out of it because they never improved, they just kept doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result, and we know the definition of insanity. So I think that’s really where I think you’ve shined in this particular area. And I really appreciate you coming on the show and sharing that kind of insight. Really a very helpful.

Christopher: Yeah, Steve, I’ve gotten a lot of ideas from listening to your podcast. You have great guests, and appreciate the work you’re doing, and I encourage people to use your services, to get that coaching that they need. And also, if you want to reach out to me, if you’re a struggling lawyer, it’s just not working, you’re trying everything you can, and it’s just not hitting the mark. Let me know that you listened to this program, I’m happy to give you some tips myself.

Steve Fretzin: And all of Christopher’s information will be in the show notes if you’re interested in reaching out to him or reaching out to me, or just to … again, we’re going to be putting the transcription of this online. So you’ll have all that to work off of. And Christopher, just again, thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing your expertise and your knowledge with my audience, it’s really top-notch.